tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post113701700526622599..comments2024-01-29T14:24:46.852-05:00Comments on Wes Ellis: reflections on theologywellis68http://www.blogger.com/profile/06087588494600746854noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137691301102873772006-01-19T12:21:00.000-05:002006-01-19T12:21:00.000-05:00In the forward of H. Ray Dunning's book entitled "...In the forward of H. Ray Dunning's book entitled "Grace, Faith & Holiness" he states that "It is imperative that these theological expressions be stated in the language and thought forms of every new generation if the life of the church is to be nurtured and sustained." He also says, and I agree, that "theology is an unavoidable task from which no one, clergy or lay, is exempt." He goes on to say "the task of theology is to be the business of the whole church, not simply a few scholars who are kept sfely insulated from the life of the real world."<BR/><BR/>As you can see, I have quite a passion for Theology. Your "reflections on theology" post is the kind of stuff that I am searching for to help me continue to work out my theology. I will stay tuned to your blog (and some others) to see how you are working out yours as well. I have linked to your blog from mine in hopes that folks will continue the dialog. <BR/><BR/>~KevinAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12145416736697860158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137392841181664192006-01-16T01:27:00.000-05:002006-01-16T01:27:00.000-05:00Thanks Maryellen and Mike. I guess God is teaching...Thanks Maryellen and Mike. I guess God is teaching me patience.wellis68https://www.blogger.com/profile/06087588494600746854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137363968057254352006-01-15T17:26:00.000-05:002006-01-15T17:26:00.000-05:00Well put, MaryEllen.Well put, MaryEllen.Agent Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17797031158032033042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137342527424844642006-01-15T11:28:00.000-05:002006-01-15T11:28:00.000-05:00Wes, you are gentleman and a scholar. I appreciate...Wes, you are gentleman and a scholar. I appreciate your wisdom and your restraint.Arthur Brokop IIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15347223269423770913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137306124612596702006-01-15T01:22:00.000-05:002006-01-15T01:22:00.000-05:00Jason,I agree. My exsitence doesn't change the mea...Jason,<BR/>I agree. My exsitence doesn't change the meaning of scripture. There's a saying I've heard before... "the methods change but the message stays the same." How we apply the scriptures changes from culture to culture. We live in a totally different world than the the people in the bible did. It's the task of every generation to do the hard work of theology; discovering what it means to be the Church.wellis68https://www.blogger.com/profile/06087588494600746854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137226447178075242006-01-14T03:14:00.000-05:002006-01-14T03:14:00.000-05:00good question Jason. I encourage you to think abou...good question Jason. I encourage you to think about that one for a while.wellis68https://www.blogger.com/profile/06087588494600746854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137170564857887682006-01-13T11:42:00.000-05:002006-01-13T11:42:00.000-05:00good point... let me see if I really follow you......good point... let me see if I really follow you... Are you saying that faith is more personal when we remove our 21st century lens and try to understand it in its own culture? If that's what your saying... I agree. My faith grew leaps and bounds when I started examining the contextual component of scripture. the question "what does the Bible have to say to me or us, now?" is much easier to answer when we know what it meant to him or them, then.wellis68https://www.blogger.com/profile/06087588494600746854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137169160704698882006-01-13T11:19:00.000-05:002006-01-13T11:19:00.000-05:00The key is allowing the Holy Spirit to apply the W...The key is allowing the Holy Spirit to apply the Word to our life. My problem is often, not knowing or understanding what the Bible says, but doing what it says! Obedience to His Word takes care of the cultural lens. I admit I do not exactly know how to reconcile a deeply personal faith as revealed through His Word and applied by the Holy Spirit with a social or cultural awareness. Nevertheless, I am "pressing on".<BR/><BR/>~KevinAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12145416736697860158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137119946886560712006-01-12T21:39:00.000-05:002006-01-12T21:39:00.000-05:00Kevin,Thanks for that wonderful analogy. The Beaut...Kevin,<BR/>Thanks for that wonderful analogy. The Beauty of Jesus' act of coming into the world is that it still happens. As Jesus came in a manger long ago, the son of a carpenter, to Jewish people as a Jew. He comes to us wherever we are and in whatever situation we find ourselves in. <BR/><BR/>The cultural lens can either help or hinder our interperetation of the scripture. We can see as it is and explain it to our culture (which would help us) or we can emancepate it from its own culture and forget the heart and soul of what is really being said.wellis68https://www.blogger.com/profile/06087588494600746854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137114418944526762006-01-12T20:06:00.000-05:002006-01-12T20:06:00.000-05:00It has been said that Jesus comes to us "dressed" ...It has been said that Jesus comes to us "dressed" in the clothes of our own culture. If that is so, then the Bible comes to us through the lens of our culture. It speaks to us in relevant and personal terms. The Holy Spirit makes the words real. The Holy Spirit applies it to our hearts and lives. <BR/><BR/>~KevinAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12145416736697860158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137105663750996832006-01-12T17:41:00.000-05:002006-01-12T17:41:00.000-05:00Jason,I am no epistimologist. So I am speaking ou...Jason,<BR/><BR/>I am no epistimologist. So I am speaking outside my comfort zone here. But I will take a stab at it. I can give you my beliefs/convictions for what they are worth, and point you to where I discovered them.<BR/><BR/>I think "knowing God" as in John 17:3 is a lot more akin to the kind of knowing like knowing my wife or my parents/kids - loved ones- than like knowing the right answer on a test. I am not claiming that there is not overlap between kinds of knowing - I would not know how to pursue that critically. But it is a relational thing to "Know God." You must have faith; it is not objective.<BR/><BR/>Much biblical knowledge is the same. Some stuff you can put on a test and get it right or wrong - I did that in college. But some stuff is more spiritual and intuitive and definitely relational.<BR/><BR/>Part of the rub people have with Relative Truth is that it has been made out to implicate an anything goes mentality -especially as it relates to morality. I am not suggesting such a thing. I am saying that when you relate to God, you must be faithful to Him. That implicates the opposite of anything goes.<BR/><BR/>I do not have the book(s) in front of me at the moment, so I cannot nail down page numbers (which would be handy), but look at N.T. Wright's New Testament and the People of God and Jesus and the Victory of God (NTPG & JVG). There he talks about a hermaneutic of suspicion v. hermaneutic of love. It is a complicated discussion, but worth the struggle to understand.<BR/><BR/>The world is changing. Science and Enlightenment have proven that they are not all they were cracked up to be. I suspect you feel the world coming apart around you as there seems to be less and less solid ground to stand on, as it once seemed there was. This holds for Bible study as much as anything else.<BR/><BR/>Also read Colossians Remixed by Walsh and Keesmaat. In that book, I'm thinking ch 3 or 4 -ish, there is a discussion of relative truth v. objective truth. It is a much simpler read than Wright, but also challenging. There they make a case that fits the kind of language I am using much closer. They talk about how "truth" comes from the word "troth" as in "betroth". It means faith/trust. To know this truth would require a hermaneutic of love and a jettisoning of a hermaneutic of suspicion, which actually comes from the Enlightenment and Science - the very things that have waged so much war with a biblical worldview for the last 300 years or so.<BR/><BR/>I hope that helps.<BR/><BR/>Many blessings...Agent Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17797031158032033042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137105652690109182006-01-12T17:40:00.000-05:002006-01-12T17:40:00.000-05:00Yes you're right Maryellen. Jesus didn't use that ...Yes you're right Maryellen. Jesus didn't use that word. That was part of my point. We're constantly changing our translations according to the cultural context.wellis68https://www.blogger.com/profile/06087588494600746854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137103756150927832006-01-12T17:09:00.000-05:002006-01-12T17:09:00.000-05:00I don't think the LORD used the term "farthing". I...I don't think the LORD used the term "farthing". Isn't that an old British coin? I agree with what you are saying Wes, and I have come to much the same conclusions as I have delved deeper into the Word. A debate rages about contextualizing the Bible, or the Gospel. But that is exactly what the English Translators did when they translated it from the Greek and Hebrew. Ofcourse we don't all need to be Greek and Hebrew scholars, the Holy Spirit can speak to us through any and all translations if we are truely seeking Wisdom and Understanding as we are commanded to do. But there are some things all us theologians need to understand...I think Mike said it very well. <BR/>Oh my gosh, I'll never get that "word verification right...Arthur Brokop IIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15347223269423770913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137098206361023322006-01-12T15:36:00.000-05:002006-01-12T15:36:00.000-05:00Jason,I am saying no such thing. What I am saying...Jason,<BR/><BR/>I am saying no such thing. What I am saying is that if you insist on saying that you have a direct connection with some objective divine truth that is not influenced by context, then you are deeply mistaken. If you insist on it and condemn others for not achieving it, then you are not only mistaken, you are causing trouble. To deny such influence is actually dishonest.<BR/><BR/>So the key is to use a little humility, and search honestly with the tools you have. God honors that. God always honors humility - look at the Christ Hymn of Philippians 2.<BR/><BR/>----<BR/><BR/>Pastor Art,<BR/><BR/>Yes, I agree that you and I are saying much the same thing. I concur. Good thoughts. I enjoy the exchange.Agent Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17797031158032033042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137093438039054802006-01-12T14:17:00.000-05:002006-01-12T14:17:00.000-05:00Mike,You're right Mike, This subject has been on m...Mike,<BR/>You're right Mike, This subject has been on my mind alot. I tried to touch on some of the things you added, I agree. Good points and thank you.wellis68https://www.blogger.com/profile/06087588494600746854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11928317.post-1137031907710105852006-01-11T21:11:00.000-05:002006-01-11T21:11:00.000-05:00Wes,Bravo. I left a comment bookmarked in the unf...Wes,<BR/><BR/>Bravo. I left a comment bookmarked in the unfolding discussion on "inerrancy of scripture" below. This post seems to touch a cord that is still ringing from that discussion.<BR/><BR/>You make a good case. We need to be honest about the context from which we ourselves as individuals and as groups in places and times read. And we need to grasp, to the best of our ability(ies), the context(s) of the Bible, its writers, and readers between them and us. Otherwise, who knows what kind of mess we will stirr up and call it "truth" or what ever.<BR/><BR/>I would just add one element to your thought. So many who proclaim to have some direct connect to "meaning" like a Holy Spirit pipeline straight to some cosmic objective truth (those who come off seeming "gnostic" as Pastor Art pointed out) fail to see their own philosophical and cultural influences, and then try to deny they have any.<BR/><BR/>I never heard of Augustine or his theodicy before I went to college. But I knew something about the "problem of evil" and the "free will" argument that tries to resolve it - even though I did not know those terms or the great thinker(s) who first espoused them. In my experience with conservative western Christians, I have never met one who likewise was not at least residually familiar, though most had never heard of Augustine or used terms like "problem of evil".<BR/><BR/>Point being, these things are "man's" thoughts which have filtered into the pop-culture. These things are part of the air we breath. Hardly anyone argues against them, and almost everyone wrestles with them. So many who claim the Holy Spirit pipeline to God,truth, meaning, etc... do not realize their own minds having been influenced by this kind of cultural - and thus contextual - philosophy.<BR/><BR/>It is one thing to be ignorant of the terms used for such, it is another to arrogantly claim that you are not influenced. We must humbly recognize that we are influenced. Some influences are good, some bad, but we must contend with them. We must be honest about them. We must evaluate them to the best of our abilities with the best tools available to us at any point.<BR/><BR/>But some resist this. That is okay, in so far as they do not go around condemning others for not obtaining their "pipeline". <BR/><BR/>Good thoughts. Thanks for sharing. I have rambled here more with mine than I should. But you (and Pastor Art) have me engaged. That is what blogging is good for I guess.<BR/><BR/>Many blessings...Agent Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17797031158032033042noreply@blogger.com